Curse

Xenomortis · May 25, 2009, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

OMG you did not just diss Searing Flames!!!

<--- Primary Elly for nearly 4 years, Legendary Guardian, approves 110% of having 2 Searing Flames ellys with a ToF paragon anywhere in the game that the burning condition works.

Indeed, it will work. The synergy between SF and ToF is good, but that doesn't change the fact your apparant main source of damage is non-armour ignoring elemental damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

And as for necros, SS / SV plus a VoR mesmer is just epic ownage. I put SV on the N/Rt healer.

You have a lot to learn about necromancers if you think Spiteful Spirit is epic. VoR is basically a mesmer's version and is still weak.
But here is not the place to go into that.

englitdaudelin · May 25, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

What seems to be a common idea in a lot of these posts is an explanation of WHY a build ... needs criticism. I've seen a number of "lol whut" one-liners in many places--not here, which is nice--but in game, in other threads, in other forums.

When THAT'S all that a build critic has to offer, then the OP has a legitimate gripe. When a build critic says "WTF, nooOb," then the OP has a point.

But if, as many in this thread have done, the "build critics" explain why the build is gimped-- speccing into too many atttributes, relying on weak attributes, relying on bars that don't mesh well with other bars, ignoring the confitions and effects for skills (removes preparations? needs to be near a spirit?), relying on an elite skill that doesn't work for an area (I'm looking at you, minion masters in areas with few corpses)--then people should listen. You're getting free advice.

Yes,absolutely, this is a game; it should be fun; when you're H+Hing it, you have the freedom to run any bar you like. But one requirement for PuGs, most of the time, is success--it's not fun to fail hard. And a build that doesn't pull its weight....that's not fun for a PuG to deal with either. You're within your rights to try to run a weak build, and they're within their rights to offer useful discussion of the build--and within their rights not to accept you if you won't be open to suggestion.

Mushroom · May 25, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

This thread is funny because the OP is complaining about build critics, and what happens, the majority of the posts are criticizing the build.

Suppose I pose this question instead... Is anybody else annoyed at players who think they have "epic" builds, but really do not?

I am actually laughing here.

I was hot, tired, and rather ticked off when I vented with that post.

And I do remember saying that was not my usual build. There had been some quick and dirty changes made for a specific need (2nd class to Ranger, Winter, more healing then usual). I probably should have reverted to my usual and posted that, but it was quite late in the night, and I was hot and tired. (I only have the Ranger secondary for two purposes on that character, Winter for the final Proph mission, and to get a pet for the Hall Of Monuments.)

My usual build is more traditional Spirit Spammer, with Spirit Light for self heals, and Boon of Creation.

And for the one that laughed at the hex of Painful Bond, it can be quite nasty for popping ambushes. Drop 4-5 attack spirits, then use PB to pull. Can see some pretty impressive numbers roll up rather quickly. Bigger plus when your necro has Well of Darkness, Feast of Corruption, Toxic Chill, etc.

But with only a few exceptions, most comments seem to be of the negative aspect. There were a few that really were trying to be constructive, and I applaud those. But by and large, most have been the "you suck" vein. *shrugs*

And it's ok, I posted both to vent some of my own frustrations, and to see what others in here thought. I do have rather thick skin, and some of the things I have seen from others have been repeated in here. It is funny that forums can be a microcosm of real life (or in this case, Guild Wars life). Because so many things I see there I saw here.

For example, "You have no Elite skill, your build sucks".

Sooo, what if I added an Elite, then simply never used the damned thing? Does that mean my build no longer sucks?

And my belief on what makes a sucky build I see all the time: Rez Signets on heroes (or Monk-Ritualist-Paragon).

Ever see a hero, no second class, or monk as the second class, with a Rez signet? Sheesh, make a Monk-Rit-Paragon secondary and go with Resurection, Rebirth, Signet of Return, Lively Was Naomei, something. Or even Vengeance. That can be fun, especially on noobs who wonder why they keep dying, with no increase in DP.

Have you ever gone out with that annoying sin who insists they can take on mobs of the Afflicted by themselves? Or that Tank that does not know when to hold back and wait for healing before charging back into the battle? Just use Vengeance(TM) next time. At least that way when it is over he (or she) will only be at -15%dp, instead of -60%dp. And for the next 50 purchasers of Vengeance(TM), we are giving away a free Ginsu Katana. Koss will love it! Tie it to the end of a stick and Melonni will love it! Just don't give it to Goren, or he will slice the coprolite out of himself! Just remember, Vengeance(TM), by ShiroCo.

bhavv · May 25, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

But when you turn on HM you need to be able to kill the AI as quickly as you can, otherwise you may end up sustaining too much damage. Plus having a Spirit Light with only 84 healing is not going to keep you alive in HM.

Alesia would keep my party alive for longer then some of the terribad bars that players use.

Henchmen skill bars are what I base my judgement of players skill bars on. If they are as good as, or better then the henchmen, I dont mind. If not, I ask for A change. If the bad bar is on a hero, I ask to kick the hero and take the better henchman instead.

If I am going to bother to play with other people, what exactly is the point in having a party that is worse then henchmen???

I want a party that is better than H/H, not worse.

zwei2stein · May 25, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

... Today it happened to me 2 times. ...

That should have been your first clue. Seriously.

a) Success in getting titles does not mean you are any good. I should know.
b) Chances are, people really, really do see terrible builds and do want to help out by giving you tips to improve. At least for completing missions you ara gonna start.
c) You do not have to play class X to understand it and detect really, really bad builds. Really.

diehuman · May 25, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

u reminds me a wammo that i puged last night who runs sword / prot with only 3 point of strength in his build:
frenzy, sa+gash combo, dragon slash, RoF, ProtSpirit, rebirth, and a skill i forget
i told him we had a port monk already (we have 2 monks already), i ask him to change his build and he told me he was playing for fun.
then it takes us (the whole team, like 5 of us) 15 mins to explain why prot spell wont work on warrior
he just cant stand it and leave
he was just wasting our time then and we are not very happy bout it,
sometime critics are good cuz while u brought a lame build like the wammo did, u affect the whole team progress or may let everyone get killed cus u didnt do your job regarding to your profession
i think most of us are playing to success, not based on your mood

Mushroom · May 25, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

That should have been your first clue. Seriously.

But the reason they "complained" was in relationship to other things.

For example, both said "Why Winter? You do not do elemental damage."

Well no, duh! Neither do most Rangers. But it helps the Elementalists out tremendously. On missions (or with other people) I mostly play a Rit as a "support character", with the spirits disrupting the enemy, causing side effects (blindness, knock down, interruption, etc), and also working as a secondary healer if I am with a group.

I brought more healing then usual, because on that one the Monks are frequently overtasked. And since groups all to often release to many fists-hands, the trail of Preservation spirits gives places to run to (not to mention frequently they stop to fight the spirits, breaking persuit).

To give an idea, this is closer to my usual build.

OAOl8EgcYIykycMLnntodmra6snc

My Necro hero uses Well Of Darkness, Dervish hero Rending Sweep.

wetwillyhip · May 25, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I'm sorry this game has turned into Build Wars.... people will not have fun unless they are successful through parts of the game that shouldn't be made harder than they are. Getting good potent and powerful builds aren't that hard to make, you don't even have to PVX it. Healing at 39 pts with losing a condition, that's worse than a condition removal skill from a Monk's Protection Prayer's skill line. You need to focus on maxing 2-3 attributes and their relative skills or else the build will be not effective.

zwei2stein · May 25, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

But the reason they "complained" was in relationship to other things.

For example, both said "Why Winter? You do not do elemental damage."

Well no, duh! Neither do most Rangers. But it helps the Elementalists out tremendously. On missions (or with other people) I mostly play a Rit as a "support character", with the spirits disrupting the enemy, causing side effects (blindness, knock down, interruption, etc), and also working as a secondary healer if I am with a group.

I brought more healing then usual, because on that one the Monks are frequently overtasked. And since groups all to often release to many fists-hands, the trail of Preservation spirits gives places to run to (not to mention frequently they stop to fight the spirits, breaking persuit).

To give an idea, this is closer to my usual build.

OAOl8EgcYIykycMLnntodmra6snc

My Necro hero uses Well Of Darkness, Dervish hero Rending Sweep.

Okay, you are trying to help. Awesome. Kudos.

Want to help out monks? Okay.

Pure heals on Rt are kinda sucky they eat energy too much to what they provide without decent investment (at least 9 points), key skill you want to bring to help out is [Weapon of Warding] to help with those pesky hands which can prevent massive amounts of damage (which, incidentally is kinda better than your necro well hero thing - no corpses for decent coverage) and [Protective Was Kaolai] to have instant heal ups if party gets targeted by imp spike.

Want to help out with damage? Winter is okay-ish, if you do have eles (but still very meh-worthy if you are doing hm). As far as your own damage goes, [Splinter Weapon] does order of magnitude more damage than attack spirit combo (which is quite unwieldy - setting up spirit nest and recharge downtime and stuff! if only for psychical reason - others get bored/pissed/impatient and start making mistakes; for this reason your usual build is even less desirable. especially with several 25e, low duration/high recharge spirits.), so especially when you have dervish in party, not bringing splinter is waste.

Whatever, post your team to hero section of forum if you care, people will provide you feedback and some points that might not have crossed your mind.

rick1027 · May 25, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

i have never minded changing my bar to help a group but one thing you have to have a better reason why i should take something and not something cause i will discuss my reasons and on occassions i have changed but those who want me to run a build they seen on pvi wiki and have no reason behind it can just leave i know those builds and research there when i make a build but i do modify my build to the area. i understand what works and ive had a few talk nme into bringing something else before so ameniable but dont tell me to run a bar cause you think its good because mine is probably better then the one you send me cause ive thought about it before i give it

glacialphoenix · May 25, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Of course, this does not apply to the legitimate "junk builds" out there. And yea, I have seen a lot of them. But come on, by the time a person makes it to Hell's Precipice (or any of the other endgame points), they should have a good idea what is working, and what is not working.

Um, no. I've seen flare eles in Ring of Fire HM. I've seen an Animate Bone Horror monk in Thirsty River HM. Please remember that people can be run to that point by guildies, or have friends who help cover their asses, or pay for runners. NM is not exactly the hardest thing in the world to complete, and it's entirely possible to overestimate your ability with a particular character just because that character is capable of finishing stuff in NM.

keesie · May 25, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

srs in RA I used blessed aura, if you combo that with 20% longer enchantments you get an everlasting guardian, ppl always leave when they see me using it :P

Nay of the Ether · Jun 07, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

I actually had to register so I could post on this ridiculous thread. First off, yes it is a weak build. But who the hell cares? Thats has nothing to do with the point of this thread whatsoever. Secondly the fact that the majority of you were so quick to jump on the bashing bandwagon exactly proves the ORIGINAL point trying to be made. I was going to qoute all the moronic and childish comments I saw, but I ran out of patience after about 15 or so. Yes, helpful criticism is fine. That means offering an alternative rather than pretending to be helping but really just bashing. And no, I am not taking up for him because my builds suck and I hate bashers. My builds work just fine and no one ever complains. And I did see one post that says it all. "Guild Wars has now become Build Wars" WTF people. I mean c'mon. Last I checked the definition of a game included the word "fun" in it. If this guy is having fun with his build, but you don't like it FIND ANOTHER PARTY you pathetic tools. Ok, venting done. Seriously though, pull your head out of your nether regions and try to grow up a little. The entire community will be better for it.

faraaz · Jun 07, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nay of the Ether

I actually had to register so I could post on this ridiculous thread. First off, yes it is a weak build. But who the hell cares? Thats has nothing to do with the point of this thread whatsoever. Secondly the fact that the majority of you were so quick to jump on the bashing bandwagon exactly proves the ORIGINAL point trying to be made. I was going to qoute all the moronic and childish comments I saw, but I ran out of patience after about 15 or so. Yes, helpful criticism is fine. That means offering an alternative rather than pretending to be helping but really just bashing. And no, I am not taking up for him because my builds suck and I hate bashers. My builds work just fine and no one ever complains. And I did see one post that says it all. "Guild Wars has now become Build Wars" WTF people. I mean c'mon. Last I checked the definition of a game included the word "fun" in it. If this guy is having fun with his build, but you don't like it FIND ANOTHER PARTY you pathetic tools. Ok, venting done. Seriously though, pull your head out of your nether regions and try to grow up a little. The entire community will be better for it.

I only want to address one point, which was made earlier. This game is mostly grinding, having been out for as long as it has. Its really not fair to take up other people's time by using subpar builds & failing or doing the mission slower than is acceptable. In that aspect, members of a team are fully justified in providing constructive criticism of builds. I think most of the problem with the OP is that he doesnt take crticism very well...if it is possible to improve your build, why not?

If that suggestion is provided in a rude fashion, sure..that's a problem, but providing criticism isnt bad by any means at all.

Nay of the Ether · Jun 07, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

never said it was in fact: "Yes, helpful criticism is fine." direct quote from what I said. And in a way yes you are right, but like I said, kick him or find another group then. Why the need for childish remarks about how uberawesome you are at making builds and how he fails at life? (and by you I mean that in a general sense, not pointing anyone out) Even if you don't have a perceptible maturity level in real life, its easy to fake one online, so give it a shot.

Wolf2581 · Jun 07, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

The only times I have a problem with the build critics are when they neglect to justify their criticism or provide nonsensical justifications for their criticism. That being said, I most often play with heroes and henchmen or alliance members who are generally more mature, knowledgeable, and rational.

By the way, I would be overcome with shame if I were to run your Rt/R combo platter anywhere with more than a four-man party limit.

faraaz · Jun 07, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Well...I was doing Gyala Hatchery HM with pugs the other day on my sin, so I asked if any of the casters had Great Dwarf Weapon, and if so, could they bring it...

I had to ask 6 times, no one responded, and I was kicked for "spamming"...

Makes you wonder why people don waste time explaining themselves...

Nay of the Ether · Jun 07, 2009, 08:13 AM // 08:13

oddly enough they might not have known what you were talking about lol

Kook~NBK~ · Jun 07, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

I've been criticised on different occasions for using a PvXwiki build and for not using a PvXwiki build. Oddly enough, it was the same build! (I have no idea whether it's on PvXwiki or not, nor do I care. All I know is it works pretty darn good.

)

That being said, I can handle constructive criticism about the builds I run. I KNOW that on my secondary characters the builds I'm using need work. My main has 3 or 4 builds that I use - 1 for general purpose and a couple for specific situations. Could they be better? I dunno, so if someone points out a flaw (without being a jerk about it) in a build I'm using, I appreciate it.

If someone IS a jerk about party members' builds, I'm quite satisfied to find out during the party formation stage the character of the person so I don't have to endure an entire mission* with the jerk.

*That is, if the party actually completes the mission. Because the irony of the thing is that, when I have stuck around with a PUG that has the "build dictator" type in it, I've noticed that it's usually the know-it-all dictator that causes party failure!

Martin Alvito · Jun 07, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

OP: If you are in my team, and you are using a terrible build, then you are wasting not only my time but the time of (usually) six other people. At best, your terrible build will slow completing the task at hand. At worst, it will cause a failure and the need to repeat the task.

This is why people criticize terrible builds. You are imposing a cost on the rest of your team when your bar is made of fail.

Now, I will grant you that some bad players don't know a good build when they see it, and only want to see the most common version of a bar. However, those are the best kind of bad player, because they actually tell you that they're bad. Then you don't end up playing with them, which saves you time.

All in all: bring a good bar to the party or go home. If you don't know how to build a good bar, you'd better rely on popular builds.